The old OVA vs. Tenchi Universe debate

[LightHawkWing]

I know this has been discussed back and forth ever since Universe's conception but I thought it'd be nice to get a fresh debate going on with us here at uselesstenchi who don't seem to be at each other's throats over differing opinions.

This whole week on the tenchiconfessions tumblr, people have been going back and forth about Universe and the canon world so I thought I'd bring the debate here:

It reached a climax with this submission:

"I'm not sugarcoating anything, I DON'T like the way Universe did the characterizations of our characters or lack thereof. Washu was a Mad Scientist and wants to destroy the universe. Why? The point of the OVA isn't just the full back story it's that these characters have motivations, they have positives, negatives, heartbreak, things that bring them joy, sadness, REASONS for why they're the way they are. How is Washu the greatest genius in the universe but yet, all her inventions blow up in her face or Go wrong? That's consistent. I don't like the way the way they bastardize Ayeka and make her some spoiled bitch, talking about "the first time I went to a carnival to be around the uhh...common people". I don't like how they took a perfectly fine and complex character like Mihoshi and just remove all her brains to make her a stupid airhead who has to break down and cry "I NEED KIYONE!!!!" when Kiyone leaves for 5 minutes in the movie. I don't like how they took Hasegawa's Kiyone character and just made her the bitchy partner of Mihoshi who wanted her dead ("oh but WE LOVE Mihokiyo SO much!!1!11"). The girl was GIDDY when she thought Mihoshi was DEAD. Ryoko's characterization flip flopped from episode to episode and wait...why is it that she was inlove with Tenchi? She met him for 5 minutes and that's it...she didn't even know him or anything about him. "WE LOVE RyokoXTenchi in Universe!!!111" but yet, Tenchi treats her like shit in EVERY episode but the last one. Ugh."

[Gaston]

Completely agree with you. I would have just added that in the last episode we see Washu killing people with one of her invention yet the group has NOT problem with her.

[جبريل 無道]

Except for Tenchi treating Ryoko like shit part, I pretty much agree.  (He and Sasami was the only one to have faith in her in that one episode where she was supposed to get food when they were in space, and she ended up just partying it up.)

Previously, you asked in chat why they didn't use the OAV as TV.

Simply put, here Direct-to-Video denotes an inferior product.  In Japan, it's usually a superior product.  When the TM!R came out, people in Japan didn't buy it in boxsets, but by the episode.  The box set came later and cost Y60,000 ($628), so imagine what the singles cost.

http://www.pustan.com/ld/japan/t_muyo.html

When TU started releasing back in April 1995, the OAV was only released up to episode 11.  By the time TU ended in September 1995, they got episode 13.  The TV showing made AIC some money, but it's obvious they could pump out the TV episodes much faster and cheaper.  To recoup OAV costs, they had to sell them to consumers.  Besides, the TV show could only be good for TM!R sales.

Also is the problem that the OAV is an OAV, not made for TV.  It doesn't have the regular scheduled breaks for commercial, to fit in the 30 minutes, the odd sized OAV eps (of varying length, unlike a standard length made-for-tv series) would have to be broken up.  Also by ep13, there was no neat resolution of the conflict that TV had, because it was an incomplete arc.

At the end of the day, the TV station wanted an exclusive product for viewers and AIC was happy with the extra sales.

The history of OAVs is an interesting thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_video_animation#History

[Tenchi Ryu]

OVA's aren't really special anymore since Blu Rays nowadays get the same treatment. A running joke in the anime community for Shaft shows is that a show will get "shafted", basically a complete touch up job making the Blu Ray product usually vastly superior to what was on TV...

Here is an example of Madoka Magica getting shafted
http://seventhstyle.com/2011/06/21/madoka-drastically-different-blu-ray-comparisons/

Nowadays, OVAs are just a limited special you get with a manga volume, or sometimes just a way to play it safe if you're not exactly confident enough to make tv season. Both SYD and Kiss x Sis are doing this...

[SimmyC]

Shaft is kind of a special case. Unlike most TV shows, Shaft actually improves their DVD/Blu-Ray products with additional/higher quality scenes that, either due to time, lack of money, or lack of staff, they couldn't do in the first run of the TV series. Bakemonogatari was infamous for having scenes removed because they simply didn't have the staff needed to animate them on time and had to go on a hiring binge. You can argue, this is an example of a studio caring about their product. Unlike most other DVD/BD releases that, at most you might get an "HD" scale up, or removal of censorship.

That being said, it does feel (mind you, this is someone that hasn't watched a lot of anime recently) that OVAs as a business model is on the way out. Besides special "After season episode(s)" or an addition to the release of a manga volume, not a whole lot of OVA series out there. Though that probably has more to do with the economics. Cheaper and faster to release a TV series. And the returns are probably higher too. After all, the anime business, like Hollywood unfortunately, are after the guaranteed money makers now and less about creativity. Unless it's a well known series like Hellsing, chances are, it would be a TV series. TV series with a heavy dose of moe or fanserivce. Not that I mind fanservice  but as shallow as I am, that alone won't get me to watch a series.

Back on topic. To be completely honest, I didn't watch TU in its entirety. I watched bits and pieces of it since I was on a heavy Tenchi Muyo binge. But this was also the time I didn't realize there was a difference between TU and the OVAs. That and without consistent Cartoon Network access (I was too poor to afford VHS/DVDs at the time), didn't separate the two universes since I didn't know they wre separate to begin with. So initially I was confused about why they didn't seem to mesh well. Now older and looking back, my incomplete opinion on TU vs. OVA is...

OVA had much better characterization over all. Even with fewer episodes/less screentime to work with, the OVA characterization for all the characters felt more complete. Not the caricature that TU showed them as. TU!Kiyone was kind of an exception. Only because, and probably due, to the fact that she was basically a TU original. And one of the more likable characters of TU. I know she came from Mihoshi Special. Well, never got around to watching that.

Again though, my TU vs. OVA opinion is incomplete given that I didn't watch TU completely. But what I did watch, OVA was better in almost every sense.

[LightHawkWing]

Kiyone actually isn't original to TU or the Mihoshi special, she's original to Noako Hasegawa's novel continuity and she was a caricature in TU from what we know because in Hasegawa's universe, she was in love with Tenchi instead of just an extension of Mihoshi.

[جبريل 無道]

"I'm not sugarcoating anything, I DON'T like the way Universe did the characterizations of our characters or lack thereof. Washu was a Mad Scientist and wants to destroy the universe. Why? The point of the OVA isn't just the full back story it's that these characters have motivations, they have positives, negatives, heartbreak, things that bring them joy, sadness, REASONS for why they're the way they are. How is Washu the greatest genius in the universe but yet, all her inventions blow up in her face or Go wrong? That's consistent. I don't like the way the way they bastardize Ayeka and make her some spoiled bitch, talking about "the first time I went to a carnival to be around the uhh...common people". I don't like how they took a perfectly fine and complex character like Mihoshi and just remove all her brains to make her a stupid airhead who has to break down and cry "I NEED KIYONE!!!!" when Kiyone leaves for 5 minutes in the movie. I don't like how they took Hasegawa's Kiyone character and just made her the bitchy partner of Mihoshi who wanted her dead ("oh but WE LOVE Mihokiyo SO much!!1!11"). The girl was GIDDY when she thought Mihoshi was DEAD. Ryoko's characterization flip flopped from episode to episode and wait...why is it that she was inlove with Tenchi? She met him for 5 minutes and that's it...she didn't even know him or anything about him. "WE LOVE RyokoXTenchi in Universe!!!111" but yet, Tenchi treats her like shit in EVERY episode but the last one. Ugh."

BTW LHW, is there a way to get the person who posted this to become a member of our group?

[LightHawkWing]

It was anonymous!

[SimmyC]

Kiyone actually isn't original to TU or the Mihoshi special, she's original to Noako Hasegawa's novel continuity and she was a caricature in TU from what we know because in Hasegawa's universe, she was in love with Tenchi instead of just an extension of Mihoshi.

I'd say I learn something new every day, except I have heard/read that already. It just, didn't stick. 

Of course that just makes me wish I read the Noako Hasegawa's novel. Oh, there is probably a translation out there... well, now to be completely honest. Even if that was the case, my ADD side probably won't get around to it. Wanting to do something and actually doing it, two different things entirely. :p

But yes, TU, while I did enjoy the few episodes I did watch of it, it was just missing something that the OVAs had. Which I kind of already stated (characterization and development. ).

Still, I enjoyed them and would take TU over TinT any day. Never seen the movies BTW.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I personally didn't feel this supreme hatred of TinT tbh, especially after rewatching and learning more over the past few years. I think that might be because I've had the benefit of really getting around in the anime scene the past few years, specifically Harem.

I think TinT's only fault is that it had Tenchi characters, and because of that it (unfairly) gets compared to the OVA's and universe. But it's pretty much its own story that only borrows a few elements from the core story. But if you would take TinT and replace them with completely different characters, not only would the comparison to Muyo be not as strong, but it would probably have been received a lot more than it did.

But I still stand STRONGLY to my opinion that I would STILL watch Tenchi in Tokyo over 90% of other anime shows, and especially harem comedies. Tokyo still did its job, was a romantic comedy with a splash of action. The characters on its own right were also good characters. You only start seeing problems because you start judging them from what you know compared to what they really are. "Ryoko doesn't act like that!!" "Ayeka was NEVER a bitch like that!!!" "Washu was never in the CAVE!!"

IMHO, instead of AIC clearly trying to milk the Tenchi name for its worth, they should have just made Tokyo its own show.

[SimmyC]

I kind of agree with that idea. And the 'to be fair' part comes into play since, like TU, I never got around to watching the entire thing.

While I won't go so far as say that I would rather watch TinT than most anime out there (though again, I'm someone that doesn't watch a whole lot of anime to begin with. It's like saying I wouldn't read one book over the billions of others that I would never read anyways. Good or bad), as a story, the basic concept wasn't bad. Main character falls for a chick. Harem antics try to break them up or at least get in the way, 'destined' love seemed to win over when dohoho surprise plot twist. It's almost, original compared to a lot of harem stories out there.

But like you said, it will be compared to the OVA and Tenchi Universe because they used Tenchi characters in it (unfairly or not... well, depends on who you ask). While I never got around to watching the entire thing, what I did watch I absolutely hated. It's hard/difficult trying to separate the basic premise of the story with the characters having watched the OVA and TU. Knowing the characters, knowing their characterization, and then seeing them 'used' for this type of series just ruins it for me. It's like that running joke in the Type Moon verse where "there is no Tsukihime anime". People who watched the anime thought it was decent. It was only the people that read the VN that thought otherwise. Trying to watch the series on it's own merits and not just a 'Tenchi series' is kind of impossible when AiC made it a Tenchi series.

Didn't help matters that the animation quality wasn't great either but... eh. That's kind of a low blow to a series, any series to point out. Since honestly, if the story and characters is solid, animation quality shouldn't be a factor unless it's absolutely atrocious (and not simply an 'art style' like the Panty and Stocking anime). While I wasn't a fan of the quality, I didn't hate TinT for it.

[Gaston]

I know I am in the minority but I prefer TinT over Tu. Yes, at the beginning I was angry all characters were more jerk (the girls stole Nobuyuki's money and later they want do the same things with Sasami's money !), but at least they have character development and that were everyone who was bastardized unlike TU where I get the impression the Ryoko show and the others girls were bastardized to make her looks great. Also, Sakuya and Yugi are more interesting than any TU characters which I don't care about except for the ghost girl and she is from the episode  Noako Hasegawa wrote as 'guest star' so she is not even created by the normal writer of the show.

[جبريل 無道]

To me, TinT seems like it took the concept of the earlier MnE and just stretched it for 26 episodes.  Sakuya = Mayuka.  Yugi = Yuzuha.  Yugi's henchmen = Yuzuha's animated toys.  Tokyo = Yugi's domain.

I agree with TR.  It would have been an okay twist on the harem genre if they took new characters instead of established ones.

Of course that just makes me wish I read the Noako Hasegawa's novel. Oh, there is probably a translation out there... well, now to be completely honest.

Highly unlikely.  If we don't have a translation for the TTNs, the 13 Hasegawa novels are a no go.  Other than the one foreword, never heard of a translation.  They weren't even that popular in Japan judging by the complete lack of comments about it on Amazon or elsewhere.  Even the Japanese wikipedia completely lacks details on it that we don't already know.