Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?

[bishopcruz]

Some thoughts on the whole subject as I get ready to rewatch the 3rd OVA for the first time in years. By the time that episode 14 came out the entire Tenchi franchise had changed. Not only had we had TM!TV and STM!, but we had the three movies, the comics, the show had aired on Toonami for a mass audience, and the fans had a different ideas for that Tenchi Muyo: Ryo-oh-ki was than what it was ever intended to be.

Anime itself had also changed. While people argue that UY and Ranma paved the way for the harem genre, (they did in their way, I suppose) Tenchi, is what set the rules for it and made it a capital 'T' THING. The series that followed all had a dude living with a bunch of girls in his house, all of whom wanted his jock and in most of those scenarios, the crux of the story was about who he was going to pick. Or to put it better the emotional tension comes from: 'how are the obvious couple surrounded by obstacles going to eventually find a way to get over their issues and respond to each other'. Sometimes one or the other is more interested, for example, in Love Hina, Keitaro wants Naru more or less the entire series, Naru is the one in denial most of the time, and the series is about navigating the land mines until those two crazy kids figure it out.

Prior to TM! the basic formula was the love triangle, this was seen just about everywhere: KOR, Macross, Maison Ikkoku, and about every major show with a romantic subplot before or since. Hell, even LH had a MASSIVE LT throughout. And again the tension in a love triangle is who is the main character going to pick.

These romantic subplots hold the viewers attention so well because in many ways they are the through line throughout the entire series. In an action show, baddies can come and go, but the romantic tension will remain until finally that plot is resolved. And even though relatively little time is spent dealing with it as compared to say action and transforming robots, as in Macross, the romance aspect is what sticks with people.

So when the third, and supposedly final OAVs came out to wrap up the story, Kajishima kinda trolled fans who were expecting the OAV version of the TM!TV ending, hard. It spent time on MIHOSHI! and NEW PEOPLE! and NOIKE and not on the important part that people had invested time, and energy and fanfic and shipping wars on. Who the fuck is Seto? Why is she here?

It didn't help that apparently the OAVs were cut short (where is the confirmation on this BTW, I know he said it in a doujin, but I heard it was to be a 13 episode series at one point, any idea where that was stated?) and only spent one episode on what is traditionally considered the most important aspect of the story (just WTF is Tenchi)? And most importantly to most, he never picked anyone. Wasn't that the point all along, wasn't he supposed to pick Aeka, or Ryoko? or if you were a crazy fan both?

Well, no. That has never been the point of the series, its just that what Tenchi is in Kajishima's mind, and what it became, due to a whole range of influences in fan's minds are two completely different things.

It also didn't help that it does, in my memory at least, seem to be missing a bit of the emotional core of OAV2 that made those episodes so special, but 14-20 are going to be rewatched soon.

[shades of blue]

For the most part that sounds about right.

"Who the fuck is Seto? Why is she here?"

Do you mean that's how the viewers thought or what you were thinking when you finally rewatched OVA3? As for who Seto is, she's the most powerful figure in all of Jurai and she was there first hand to establish relations with Washu & smooth things over after negotiations with Funaho ended in stalemate. All those bitchy 'fans' would already be more familiar with her had they actually taken the time to watch GXP first or like Japanese fans, were able to read Kajishima's novels beforehand. Both of which were made available before OVA3 was brought to market.

Honestly, there's a lot going on with OVA3 - Mihoshi's screwed up family, wrapping up the goddess arc, Jurai further scrutinizing Tenchi's harem & lastly addressing what happened to Tenchi's mother. Under normal conditions that much story could have filled a 13 episode series by itself & it certainly did not help that the producers felt the gap between OVA titles was so great, that it demanded the better part of an episode recapping what already happened.

Anyway, OVA2 and OVA3 were both cut short. There were meant to be a few more episodes before 'Here Comes Jurai', but they were scrapped somewhere around the time Tenchi got picked up as a TV series. The still framed 'Here Comes Jurai Part II' was likely part of those scrapped episodes. Notice the abrupt seasonal change between EP12 & EP13? That's why.

And after the goddess arc wrapped up, OVA3's sales took a major hit, so funding was once again pulled. [Sales went from around 20K per volume to half that.] So while Kajishima had intended there to be more story, everyone got short changed. As for how long OVA3 should have been, I'd guess the correct number was 12. OVA titles are usually done in sets of 6. So with the goddess arc taking up 6, the next 6 should have begun with Tenchi's mother.

When it comes to anime, Kajishima does not seem like the luckiest guy out there. It feels like everything the guy works on gets funding pulled before he has a chance to finish it! But at least Tenchi got treated better than Agga Ruter did. At this point I can't blame the guy for clinging to novels for nearly two decades.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Pretty much right on the money bishopcruz. One thing you mentioned that I always find critical in breaking down the whole thing is the harem vs love triangle view that seems to divide fans. One thing that Love Hina, Ramna and even current harems have is that although you might see 3-5 girls, its really only one or two that have a REAL chance with the guy, and the other girls pretty much just become a Supporting Harem. When it comes to Tenchi and the perceived notion this is the situation, I particularly blame this on two things.

First is the obvious, over saturation of Tenchi Universe and Tenchi in Tokyo. In the original toonami loop, We'd get a OVA 1+2, TU, TinT loop, and a rinse and repeat when the cycle ended. So counting that up, that's only 13 episodes of OVA compared to 52 episodes of spin-off. In these spinoffs, It really was just Ryoko and Ayeka who loved Tenchi. So if you're watching Toonami Tenchi, there is a .80/80% chance you are watching a love triangle for that episode. And since many lump all 3 series as the total Tenchi experience, the concept of the other girls liking him gets lost in transition.

Second is the wrong acceptance of Ryoko and Ayeka's affection in the OVA's. It gets indirectly understood as them loving him the most when its just they are the most animated about their love for him. I like to bring up episode 7 cause this seems to be the episode many point to to show their perceived Ryoko-Ayeka-Tenchi love triangle, yet this episode properly displayed all the girl's affection for Tenchi. Washu made a statement that pretty much described Ryoko and Ayeka in a nutshell for the episode, "Two wet fools who forgot to knock". They just happen to be the most energized and horny, but I don't think that should take away the fact that Mihoshi, Washu and Sasami like him just as much.

One thing that really disappoints me is how Mihoshi's affection gets passed on by fans as not serious or not important. From what I've seen, she's very much in love with Tenchi as Ryoko and Ayeka is. She's just more reserved and doesn't go all out making herself look desperate in the process. In episode 5, she was already telling us Tenchi was her destined soulmate. In episode 6, she went to go avenge Tenchi just like Ryoko and Ayeka did when she could have just let GXP know of his location. In episode 7 where when asked from Yosho about being Tenchi's wife, she was more nervous about his feelings than hers. Then in that same episode where she was jumping like a highschool girl with a crush when telling her superior Tenchi wanted her to come back to his home.

Another thing I did like about OVA 3 was that it established that Mihoshi is just as much in this "race" as anyone else. From the radio drama of her having dirty dreams about Tenchi, to her emailing her brother everyday about Tenchi, to even making it a priority to have Misao meet Tenchi. She's even paired up with Ryoko and Ayeka when getting tied up by Washu for always hovering over Tenchi and not giving him space.

[LightHawkWing]

Fucking hate when I come late to a discussion and someone else has already taken the majority of the points I would have used.

[Dr.Soviet]

Fucking hate when I come late to a discussion and someone else has already taken the majority of the points I would have used.

[LightHawkWing]

Hahahaha

You know, a lot OVA 3 haters tend to say that they didn't like Noike because she's a "Mary Sue." I don't see her as one, I just see her as a normal chick, you know what I mean? As "normal" as someone in her situation can be. Being a regular person with abandonment/foster home issues does not=being a Mary Sue.

[Dr.Soviet]

Hahahaha

You know, a lot OVA 3 haters tend to say that they didn't like Noike because she's a "Mary Sue." I don't see her as one, I just see her as a normal chick, you know what I mean? As "normal" as someone in her situation can be. Being a regular person with abandonment/foster home issues does not=being a Mary Sue.

I think the majority of Noike hate comes from Kiyone fans that are still 10 YEARS LATER mad about Noike being in OVA 3 and not Kiyone. Also she was a common enemy for shippers that felt "Threatened" by her.

[takahata]

In an interview, Kajishima had stated that he was OVA 3 to focus on the Chousin Sisters.  I had wished that Kajishima was more careful when he added the Kuramitsu Family subplot.  I like the ideal of Tenchi meeting Mihoshi's own family.  One of Kajishima's mistakes was not confirming that the Galaxy Army Genereal who was talking to Mihoshi's grandfather Minami was Mihoshi's own father Nakita Kuramitsu.  In GXP, Misao was working for his father and his Great Aunt Mikami.  Before the events of GXP, Nakita had convinced Mikami to change his son's punishment to helping him on an important mission.

I did felt that OVA 3 had left me with more questions which need to be answer. I do hope that there will be a couple of more OVA series.  Of course, I will ahve to leave it up to Masaki Kajishima.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Agree, Mihoshi's family really has a lot of exploration that could be done on them, truly fascinating people. And I agree that Nakita didn't get a proper introduction. He was at least however shown in the Kurumitsu family scene in episode 5.

[bishopcruz]

Anyway, OVA2 and OVA3 were both cut short. There were meant to be a few more episodes before 'Here Comes Jurai', but they were scrapped somewhere around the time Tenchi got picked up as a TV series. The still framed 'Here Comes Jurai Part II' was likely part of those scrapped episodes. Notice the abrupt seasonal change between EP12 & EP13? That's why.

Never hear this about OVA2, where was this mentioned. I figured there were cut scenes, but entire episodes? Do we know what they would have been about?

And after the goddess arc wrapped up, OVA3's sales took a major hit, so funding was once again pulled. [Sales went from around 20K per volume to half that.] So while Kajishima had intended there to be more story, everyone got short changed. As for how long OVA3 should have been, I'd guess the correct number was 12. OVA titles are usually done in sets of 6. So with the goddess arc taking up 6, the next 6 should have begun with Tenchi's mother.

That doesn't make much sense, the goddess arc wrapped up with the last episode of the series, OAV 3+1 was a one-shot that was created after the fact and it feels more like the condensation of story happened in episode 6 more than anything else. It would make more sense that his number of episodes would have been cut after episode 3, when there was the first big hiatus, or sometime during the arc itself. Do you have a link where you got that info?

When it comes to anime, Kajishima does not seem like the luckiest guy out there. It feels like everything the guy works on gets funding pulled before he has a chance to finish it! But at least Tenchi got treated better than Agga Ruter did. At this point I can't blame the guy for clinging to novels for nearly two decades.

Isekai was great because he was able to get a full 13 episode OAV that he could play with as he wished. And it showed. As such it was probably the best told of any of his individual series.

Pretty much right on the money bishopcruz. One thing you mentioned that I always find critical in breaking down the whole thing is the harem vs love triangle view that seems to divide fans. One thing that Love Hina, Ramna and even current harems have is that although you might see 3-5 girls, its really only one or two that have a REAL chance with the guy, and the other girls pretty much just become a Supporting Harem. When it comes to Tenchi and the perceived notion this is the situation, I particularly blame this on two things.

First is the obvious, over saturation of Tenchi Universe and Tenchi in Tokyo. In the original toonami loop, We'd get a OVA 1+2, TU, TinT loop, and a rinse and repeat when the cycle ended. So counting that up, that's only 13 episodes of OVA compared to 52 episodes of spin-off. In these spinoffs, It really was just Ryoko and Ayeka who loved Tenchi. So if you're watching Toonami Tenchi, there is a .80/80% chance you are watching a love triangle for that episode. And since many lump all 3 series as the total Tenchi experience, the concept of the other girls liking him gets lost in transition.

I think TU is especially guilty of this. Look I loved TU, I've been a Tenchi fan since the tapes were coming out individually back in the day and the dub was considered one of the best in the land. It took me a long time to really understand that the show was NOT about "which one would Tenchi (or really, I) pick?", but more about how the characters evolve in the world that Kajishima created. Again, shows in which the main character had THAT many girls going after him were pretty much nonexistent at the time, and the popular shows which had romantic conflict were about a triangle. Even if you were to accept the idea that it would move past a triangle into say, a pentagon at the end of OAV 13, it would still be about which ONE of the four he would get with.

TU had many failings, but it DID do a good job of creating a full arc over a 26 episode run, provided action and laughs, and had one of my favorite endings of an anime at the time. And it WAS about that idea of WHO Tenchi would pick. And for many that was a lot more satisfying, on a visceral level.

Second is the wrong acceptance of Ryoko and Ayeka's affection in the OVA's. It gets indirectly understood as them loving him the most when its just they are the most animated about their love for him. I like to bring up episode 7 cause this seems to be the episode many point to to show their perceived Ryoko-Ayeka-Tenchi love triangle, yet this episode properly displayed all the girl's affection for Tenchi. Washu made a statement that pretty much described Ryoko and Ayeka in a nutshell for the episode, "Two wet fools who forgot to knock". They just happen to be the most energized and horny, but I don't think that should take away the fact that Mihoshi, Washu and Sasami like him just as much.

Well, that and they end up being the most obvious of the suitors to side with. And the show spends the most time getting into their heads when it comes to how they feel. Aeka has a good portion of her introductory episodes based on her burgeoning attraction to Tenchi and Ryoko has her love for him pretty much always at the fore. In OAV 2 especially, we see a LOT of just how much Ryoko deeply loves the schlub, and the audience feels for her. With the others it's generally played as a joke. So it is understandable that the audience identifies most with the two lead female characters, they are the leads for a reason.

And that's not to say that the other girls aren't in love with the big T, they most certainly are, but far less screen time is given to them in that regard than to Ryoko and Aeka.

One thing that really disappoints me is how Mihoshi's affection gets passed on by fans as not serious or not important. From what I've seen, she's very much in love with Tenchi as Ryoko and Ayeka is. She's just more reserved and doesn't go all out making herself look desperate in the process. In episode 5, she was already telling us Tenchi was her destined soulmate. In episode 6, she went to go avenge Tenchi just like Ryoko and Ayeka did when she could have just let GXP know of his location. In episode 7 where when asked from Yosho about being Tenchi's wife, she was more nervous about his feelings than hers. Then in that same episode where she was jumping like a highschool girl with a crush when telling her superior Tenchi wanted her to come back to his home.

Another thing I did like about OVA 3 was that it established that Mihoshi is just as much in this "race" as anyone else. From the radio drama of her having dirty dreams about Tenchi, to her emailing her brother everyday about Tenchi, to even making it a priority to have Misao meet Tenchi. She's even paired up with Ryoko and Ayeka when getting tied up by Washu for always hovering over Tenchi and not giving him space.

Right, but that goes back to what I said above, it is a misconception, but an understandable one. Ryoko and Aeka are the ones at the forefront of expressing how they feel, we see how the idea of Tenchi loving them, or not, affects them more than the other girls. Mihoshi is totally head over heels for the man, but either because of her character type, or how it was played on screen it doesn't come off as quite as serious. It can easily be viewed as a crush (I saw it as such for years) Maybe if we ever find out about the 'incident' and if it did involve having her heart broken as many suspect, then that would be a good time to show how deep her love really is, and how important he is to her.

Hahahaha

You know, a lot OVA 3 haters tend to say that they didn't like Noike because she's a "Mary Sue." I don't see her as one, I just see her as a normal chick, you know what I mean? As "normal" as someone in her situation can be. Being a regular person with abandonment/foster home issues does not=being a Mary Sue.

Well, kinda like Washu said in EP 20, Noike was given a bit of a handicap, and while she had been planned for ages, I doubt most people would have looked at her sideways had the series gone one more or less uninterrupted in say 1995. Still, she was seen as stealing time and possibly Tenchi away from the 'correct' girls and that was not to be tolerated. And at the end of the day, she is no more special than anyone else at that house.

I think the majority of Noike hate comes from Kiyone fans that are still 10 YEARS LATER mad about Noike being in OVA 3 and not Kiyone. Also she was a common enemy for shippers that felt "Threatened" by her.

And yeah, the Kiyone fans. Kiyone is a fun foil people, but she's barely a character!!!!!!!

Agree, Mihoshi's family really has a lot of exploration that could be done on them, truly fascinating people. And I agree that Nakita didn't get a proper introduction. He was at least however shown in the Kurumitsu family scene in episode 5.

Damn! I did not know that! Just watched these episodes today too. Is that Mihoshi pre incident in that pic?

Also, how did Misao get out of chopping wood?

[LightHawkWing]

I think the majority of Noike hate comes from Kiyone fans that are still 10 YEARS LATER mad about Noike being in OVA 3 and not Kiyone. Also she was a common enemy for shippers that felt "Threatened" by her.

And yeah, the Kiyone fans. Kiyone is a fun foil people, but she's barely a character!!!!!!!

Agree, Mihoshi's family really has a lot of exploration that could be done on them, truly fascinating people. And I agree that Nakita didn't get a proper introduction. He was at least however shown in the Kurumitsu family scene in episode 5.

Damn! I did not know that! Just watched these episodes today too. Is that Mihoshi pre incident in that pic?

Also, how did Misao get out of chopping wood?

Hate to admit it but you're right about Kiyone. What else did she have going for her besides her partnership and disdain for Mihoshi?

And yeah, that's Mihoshi pre-incident because her hair is down and I believe someone answered that question about Misao earlier.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Never hear this about OVA2, where was this mentioned. I figured there were cut scenes, but entire episodes? Do we know what they would have been about?

If I had to make a guess, I'd bet they would venture into OVA 3 territory since episode 12 and episode 13.5 started to introduce Tokimi, Z and D3.

That doesn't make much sense, the goddess arc wrapped up with the last episode of the series, OAV 3+1 was a one-shot that was created after the fact and it feels more like the condensation of story happened in episode 6 more than anything else. It would make more sense that his number of episodes would have been cut after episode 3, when there was the first big hiatus, or sometime during the arc itself. Do you have a link where you got that info?

Not exactly sure what he was planning, but he definitely planned more. In the doujin "Omatsuri Zenjitsu no Yoru Omake Ban", or the one everyone knows as the Tenchi and Noike having sex doujin, both the foreward and afterword show Kajishima going into a mini-rant about not being able to do the series like he originally wanted. Focus on the 2nd paragraph in the first pic, and the 3rd paragraph on the second pic.


Basically, Kaji was not pleased with how he was being told how things should and shouldn't be apparently. And from the looks of it, decided to just cut OVA 3 short. It sucks because a lot of the content could have been at least 2-3 episodes on their own, especially properly explaining Noike's history, getting more in detail with Mihoshi's past and just fleshing out the scenes in episode 19. In fact, Astronerdboy has a storyboard of Tenchi meeting counteractor Misaki when time traveling in episode 19.
http://www.astronerdboy.com/tenchi/Articles/Tenchi%20Meets%20Misaki%20in%20Future.html

So there was definitely some stuff that was suppose to get into OVA 3 that didn't.

Isekai was great because he was able to get a full 13 episode OAV that he could play with as he wished. And it showed. As such it was probably the best told of any of his individual series.

This format is something Kaji should stick to for the rest of his career, PERIOD. 45 minute episodes really gives him a chance to allow him to do his typical humor and ecchi he likes, but still gives him time to explain when need be. For a 13 episode series, we got 26 episodes worth of content. This imo has set the standard.

And at the end of the day, she is no more special than anyone else at that house.

Which is why I never felt why the other fan groups felt "threatened" by her. All she did was just make a place for herself alongside everyone else. You want to see a girl come in and completely dominate? Watch Tenchi in Tokyo.

And yeah, the Kiyone fans. Kiyone is a fun foil people, but she's barely a character!!!!!!!

I try to not really touch on this since I want to follow my own rules of not committing unnecessary character bashing, but Kiyone isn't exactly a special character to me. I definitely don't hate her, nor don't wish for her to never return. But my overall opinion of her is..."meh". She had the cop-duo thing going on with Mihoshi, but if you took that away, you didn't really have much else. I also think it took away a lot of Mihoshi's independence. Even in OVA 3, Mihoshi might be a clutz, but she still has her own life and her own hobbies. And I mentioned in another thread, her room is the BOMB!! Even got a HDTV, I don't even think Tenchi has that lol.

Also, how did Misao get out of chopping wood?

If I'm remembering correctly, Misao's punishment was modified by Minami, possibly at the request of his father Nakita. He was instead placed to head the Galatic Army. And well, being in the army always has its risk I guess...

[Harls]

Isekai was great because he was able to get a full 13 episode OAV that he could play with as he wished. And it showed. As such it was probably the best told of any of his individual series.

This format is something Kaji should stick to for the rest of his career, PERIOD. 45 minute episodes really gives him a chance to allow him to do his typical humor and ecchi he likes, but still gives him time to explain when need be. For a 13 episode series, we got 26 episodes worth of content. This imo has set the standard.

Well, it was originally designed as a 26-episode TV series, but with no broadcast plan in place, squish-boom 13-double-length-episode OVA. 

[جبريل 無道]

I think the majority of Noike hate comes from Kiyone fans that are still 10 YEARS LATER mad about Noike being in OVA 3 and not Kiyone. Also she was a common enemy for shippers that felt "Threatened" by her.

And yeah, the Kiyone fans. Kiyone is a fun foil people, but she's barely a character!!!!!!!

Hate to admit it but you're right about Kiyone. What else did she have going for her besides her partnership and disdain for Mihoshi?

Do you guys really want to give my Kiyone-fangyrlishness time to shine?  Anyway, the Kiyone we see in TU is not the original Kiyone who had an attraction to Tenchi in nearly every continuity except TU.  (She even had an attraction to him in TinT).  More about that here: http://www.uselesstenchi.org/Forum/index.php?topic=203.0

I think the first animated Kiyone, the Mihoshi Special Kiyone, was really a competent officer struggling under Mihoshi and doing the best job she could to appease her bosses and Ayeka.  And within the same episode's credits, we see a glimpse of Evil Kiyone (with black hair) that we never see again in animated form but is referenced and used multiple times in other Tenchi and PS products.

She was very interesting.  That TU took her and made her a 1 trick pony is par for the course for TU, in how it flatted every character is no surprise.  Later continuities didn't have much to go by either, at least from their animated predecesssor.

I like Kiyone a lot and I think she had/has a lot of potential.  If MK took her for OAV3, gutted what he needed to, and made her roughly fit into a Noike mold, I wouldn't have complained.

[bishopcruz]

Do you guys really want to give my Kiyone-fangyrlishness time to shine?  Anyway, the Kiyone we see in TU is not the original Kiyone who had an attraction to Tenchi in nearly every continuity except TU.  (She even had an attraction to him in TinT).  More about that here: http://www.uselesstenchi.org/Forum/index.php?topic=203.0

I think the first animated Kiyone, the Mihoshi Special Kiyone, was really a competent officer struggling under Mihoshi and doing the best job she could to appease her bosses and Ayeka.  And within the same episode's credits, we see a glimpse of Evil Kiyone (with black hair) that we never see again in animated form but is referenced and used multiple times in other Tenchi and PS products.

She was very interesting.  That TU took her and made her a 1 trick pony is par for the course for TU, in how it flatted every character is no surprise.  Later continuities didn't have much to go by either, at least from their animated predecesssor.

I like Kiyone a lot and I think she had/has a lot of potential.  If MK took her for OAV3, gutted what he needed to, and made her roughly fit into a Noike mold, I wouldn't have complained.

I have nothing against Kiyone per se, and now that I think about it I haven't seen the Mihoshi special (never really had an urge to) but as you said in TU she was a 1 trick pony, pretty much like everyone else, in MnE she didn't have much of a role, in TnT she had practically no role and that's about it. We know that Kajishima had ideas of Noike from what 1995 at least? So I do very much belive that the Mihoshi's partner idea didn't originate with Hasegawa, and so I don't see a need to try and shoehorn Kiyone into that role. Kiyone does very little that moves the plot itself forward she's an afterthrought to the entire series and it shows.

Again not to say I don't LIKE her, I do. She had a very attractive, 90's character design, though it has aged more than the others. She worked well as another everyman character in the group. It's just the girls in the house are all set up to MOVE stories. Aeka and Ryoko clearly do, Washu and Sasami, aslo. Mihoshi, until OAV 3 was kind of a hanger on in that regard but that has changed, Noike also added to the dynamic as well. 

And it also comes back to her name. Kaji had a set number of names he wanted to work with (parts of the geography around kurashiki) and as such both her first, and last names were already taken by other characters. That and Kiyone sounds a lot more Juraian than not.